But I also very much understand the spirit of the post. I commented that Ward and I do something along those lines, and when I sense he is stressed (usually before he tells me, or asks for my help), I will offer myself to him, in the spirit of both my submission and the reciprocity that feeds our relationship.
This line of thought brought me back to something I have pondered since I began reading in blogland. One of the first blogs I found was Stormy's, and one of the first posts on her blog I read was her What About Unfair Spankings?. If you haven't read it, you should, it gives excellent advice on how to get through a correction or discipline spanking that you feel is unjust. A really important point she makes is:"See it as an opportunity to grow, see it as a jumping off place for communication.
Disagree but do not distrust his INTENT and PURPOSE.
View it as an act of love, submitting during tough times.
Embrace an opportunity to grow in maturity as his wife."
Another blogger handled this same issue, Christina in her post When the HoH Makes an Unfair Decision - Final Lessons. She also makes the point of accepting the HoH's decision to discipline with grace, remaining respectful and putting it more in the frame of maintenance or role reaffirmation. My quandary is in our kinds of relationships, where we have given our men the authority to take us in hand, whether it be for correction/punishment, discipline/role-affirmation, or just-because they want to, how do we then say that it's unfair? I know that Ward and I are a little different in that we do sometimes use spanking for pleasure (we use it for correction, discipline, fun, and if the spanking game takes off, for profit *grin*). But we have similar experiences in the DD portion of our dynamic. I may not necessarily have to think I need to be spanked, but my HoH does. And it's my job to submit with grace. How then can I even begin to assert that he is being unfair? Doesn't that speak to consensual non-consent? *(see end of post)
So that got me thinking about where the thought comes from. And something in OFM's post, or perhaps the comments, tickled something in my brain that I am still struggling to grasp - one of those just beyond fully formed thoughts - just the other side of understanding. What if the feeling of unfairness comes about as a result of anger? What if the HoH is angry?
What if he is unable to put aside the tensions of his day when you come to the place of discipline? What if he is angry because it is a repeated offense, or one that is grievously dangerous to his woman? What if there is argument/contention/frustration in the discussion? What if he says something that, in a highly emotional moment, is cutting to the heart of the submissive wife? What if he does not effectively communicate why he believes correction or discipline is necessary? When the husband explains what has brought them to that place, and then explains why it is damaging to the relationship, it is easier for the wife to come to a place of acceptance. But when it's not communicated at all,or is not communicated in a clear manner, or the why is omitted, it makes it harder to submit with grace.
Ward and I talked about this post as I was writing, I fleshed out ideas with him, and asked him if I was expressing myself clearly. He has some interesting thoughts that he will share as well (thank you, my heart). And he said that it should be left at a place to open discussion. So I invite you please to share your thoughts and feelings on this post,maybe we can all come to a place of better understanding.
HIS POV:
Sometimes making decisions is a difficult process. Sometimes it's even more difficult to do right by the one you love and the relationship you share. June and I have a unique relationship that isn't so much defined by punishment or correction as it is enhanced and made stronger by it.
Spanking is a lot of things, but it is rarely, if ever, convenient or easy. That is why I think that it is important that spanking be something that we don't just rush into or hurry through. It's worth doing well, thoroughly, and right.
It's easy to understand that sometimes, a disagreement or miscommunication can occur, but these things should be handled with care. Submission with grace, along with truly listening - and hearing - what each other say, is a recipe for success.
I would also make note that an even temper and knowing when a spanking is not optimal is also a valuable thing for an HoH/Top to know and understand. Spanking in anger, or out of frustration is weak, juvenile, ineffective and at it's worst harmful. A spanking, especially a disciplinary one has to be born of love and a will and desire to improve not only behavior but the relationship as a whole.
There is a world of difference between what is fair and what is right, realizing this, I endeavor to do right by us and ours in all things.
**************
*Consensual non-consent is a concept that is common to all manner of D/s relationships. If this is a term you have not heard before, or are not sure how it fits into a CDD/LDD/DD type D/s relationships, I offer these two resources:
Taken in Hand - The nature and effects of consensual non-consent
"Nonconsensual" Consent? A guideline to consent in CDD
An "unfair" spanking is rare around here and we don't use spanking for pleasure at all. That said, we've had tons of misunderstandings that only get worked out AFTER the spanking is over. In those situations it was well worth it even though they could have been classed as unfair.
ReplyDeleteThere are levels of trust here. I think close to two years in, I could handle more of what that post talked about than I could have even six months ago. My guy does always have my best interest at heart.
This will sound really funny, perhaps, Susie, but sometimes I struggle with the why I don't struggle with the spankings. I know - convoluted, right? Welcome to my brain. I often ask Ward 'Does it make me weird that I need this?'
DeleteI think Ward and I had a kind of advantage because we entered our relationship this way, it's not a dynamic that we had to work to change. I think that must be incredibly harder to do. We straddle a couple of fences, we are spankos, but we also believe that a male-led home is the natural order of things.
We talk incessantly, we always have. Before we ever came together physically, we had kind of hashed out small details - maybe just because I tend to be insecure and somewhat fearful (less now than before....okay read that neurotic) and ask 10,000 questions. Several times the answer to those questions was 'They may not always be the kind of spankings you want, but they will always be the kind that you need.' I wonder how much of my feelings are informed by those conversations. And indeed there are times when I am across his lap that I begin to wonder why I ever thought this was a good idea, but it always makes me feel better - be it relief from my incessant 'hamster-in-a-wheel' thoughts or because we have wiped the slate clean.
I think part of my struggle with this post is back to my first paragraph of this reply - does it make me weird that I don't sometimes think that Ward is unfair? Does it make me weird that I sometimes need that physical pain to overcome racing thoughts or emotional pain? Does it make me weird that I need his dominance to feel complete? Does it make me weird that those moments of reticence are fleeting?
Don't you feel sorry for Ward now? lol - that's why he tells me sometimes that I think too much and I need to just accept what is. But I have this need to understand the whys and it's frustrating to me when I don't.
I like your response to Susie above. Sometimes I have also wondered about my lack of struggle when it comes to submitting to spankings (beyond a few understandable moments of hesitation). Maybe I just haven't experienced an 'unfair' one yet? Or maybe I just accept that this lifestyle isn't really about fairness and I'm ok with that? Like your Ward pointed out, what is fair and what is right aren't always one in the same.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Tess. I'm glad I'm in good company. Do you find yourself questioning the why of what you do all the time? I do. I know it drives Ward crazy sometimes. But I really do have the need to understand, not that it would change who or what I am, but maybe some of how I feel about myself sometimes - if that makes any sense.
DeleteYes, exactly, what's right is not always fair, and it's also not always easy, not for him or me. For me, YES! I do accept that this lifestyle is very much about this and I am okay with it. I crave it in fact, it's safe. And that's not to say that I don't accept personal responsibility for my life, I do. I am big on personal responsibility and accountability.
And yes, I've never experienced an unfair one. It's the why I want to understand. Is it the way our men present them? Or our personal beliefs?
OMG - I struggle with this issue. I like erotic stuff....struggle with punishment and have terrible meltdowns when I feel I am being spanked unfairly. I think it is a growth thing, usually later I realize that there was quite a measure of "fair" in the circumstances.
ReplyDeleteGood post. :)
Hi Lillie, I'm glad you said that you like the erotic stuff and struggle with punishment (.... well for me not you,lol) because I thought that maybe I didn't struggle BECAUSE I like the erotic stuff.
DeleteEmotionally I feel raw when I have disappointed him, but I don't struggle with the submission...if that made any sense - I know what I mean, lol - gosh sometimes it is so difficult to express what you mean - it's trying to put a thought or feeling into words that you might not even fully understand or be able to identify.
Lol - the few times I have said something was not fair (not in correction or discipline situations - more like conversational things about communication like "Well I'm supposed to tell you when I'm feeling_______, it's not fair that you're holding that back." "Well, no one ever said life is fair, little one" - face/palm and sigh. (He usually is forthcoming, but you know what I mean)
You know, I've pretty much set aside the whole issue of fairness. I just truly don't believe that DD will ever be fair. It's just not going to happen because it can't happen. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Blue has my best interests at heart, and that's enough for me. Yes, he will make mistakes as an HoH, they all will. I have come to a place where I can accept that fact.
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to say that Blue has never spanked while angry. We have an agreement that I can ask for 15 minutes if I feel that he is angry. It's unlikely I'll ever need to ask, but I will if I think he needs to cool off first.
Cowgirl, yes, I know Ward has both my best interest as well as the best interest of our relationship at the center of his decision-making. Yes,he makes mistakes, too, but he is always ready and willing to admit and accept responsibility for them - that makes a difference. I don't expect him to be infallible - I think some of my friends do, but he's human, that's unrealistic.
DeleteWard does not either, once - and I still cringe at how terrible I was - I started over his lap but he stopped me and sat me on it and said we'd clear the air in a minute, now he just wanted to talk. And it was about nothing - just the day and something that had contributed to the problem, but not the problem itself. I realize now that that was his way of calming down before we did in fact clear the air.
I think the 15 minute agreement is a good thing, because it allows you to focus on the why of TTWD, and how it fosters the closeness, let's the HoH calm down and lets us focus on what happened and hopefully understand that it could be damaging instead of feeling resentful.
Thanks for this great post, June - "fairness" in marriage is assumed and expected probably as often as "equality" is, yet these terms are not always the appropriate descriptions for what the marriage partners really want or expect from their relationship. I like the way Ward puts it: "There is a world of difference between what is fair and what is right, realizing this, I endeavor to do right by us and ours in all things." I think Ward put the husband's responsibility in a nutshell right there - it's not about being fair or making the perfect judgement each time - the husband has to do what is right (even if it is uncomfortable, unfair, or downright unpopular). A wife's progress along the journey into submission is related to the extent to which she accepts that this will always be her husband's responsibility: to do what is right for her and the family.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Old Fashioned Marriage. I think I have a different kind of perspective on those terms. Fairness doesn't need to be fair for each participant, but it does have to be fair relative to the terms of the agreement, and to the dynamic. What do I mean by that? Ward and I have an agreement as to how our relationship works. If something were to happen that broke the rules and he did not correct me, he would not be being fair to me with regard to our agreed upon dynamic. To an outside would this be fair? Likely not, but as Ward says, it would be right.
DeleteEquality I think is another term. I don't have the physical capabilities that Ward does. I am also a more emotional person than Ward is. He is more analytical than I am - he is the big-picture guy. So can things really be equal, by popular definition? No. But again, within the dynamic and respective of our roles, they can be balanced. I - we believe that this is the natural order. I was made to balance him, and he was made to balance me. For me, balance is a more important concept than equality.
June: Lovely post.
ReplyDeleteI realize that I have a slightly different dynamic as it isn't purely DD, its D/s and spanking is a small part of our overall activities (both as pleasure and as punishment).
A couple of things struck me: For me to say that something my husband decides to give me as punishment or just because he feels like it is unfair, is very much akin to me being angry at him for something he decided to do, when I've agreed with full consent that he is in charge--in other words, that's like me being angry that he is charge when I've agreed to allow him to be in charge in the first place. The line might not be drawn that strongly but the concept is the same.
I trust that my husband will not do anything to me or at me or with me if he is angry.
We all make mistakes, on both sides. I think sometimes, it is harder for us on the side of submission, to forgive because we put so much trust in the authority of 'His'.
I don't think the issue of voicing unfairness speaks to consensual/non-consent. I think it speaks more to trust, avoiding an excuse to place blame (or maybe looking for a reason to assign blame) and the willingness to submit.
Thank you, Bleuame. We're not purely DD either. We are D/s and D/lg as well, we're a great big mish-mosh, lol, but it works for us. Yes, spanking is also part of our life, as more than just correction/punishment. We use it for stress relief, (his or mine, always my bottom on the line...or across the lap as it were), we use it for play, and as role-affirmation/submission exercise/just because he wants to.
DeleteYes! That's how I interpret it. I have given him blanket consent to lead our home, to lead me, to be my HoH, my man, my dominant, my Daddy, so I cannot find justification for me to be angry, or even to disagree with his taking charge. In fact, I find it delicious when he does - even in the context of discipline and correction, it gives me security, safety, stability, structure (wow, lots of 's' words there...sorry, that was little me there...she saw a shiny).
There is a huge component of trust. I have never trusted someone to the extent that I trust Ward. I have never given myself to anyone to the extent that I have given myself to Ward. He is honorable and worthy of my love, my trust and my devotion. I like how you phrased that 'avoiding an excuse to place blame'. An interesting twist to that thought: If his willingness to lead speaks to his trustworthiness, does not my willingness to submit speak to my trustworthiness?
I've seen both Stepford Wife movies. They were very entertaining. As I watched them I, and most people, had a very uneasy feeling about the perfect submissive and gleefully happy wives. I get the same feeling reading these dd blogs, and yet, like the movies, they are very entertaining.
ReplyDeleteTo live a life in which my husband would hit me is such a disgusting thought. what is sad is how you women, just like the women in the movies, have zero clue.
I respect my husband, and he leads our marriage. He loves me and makes me feel safe. We argue at times, but we have learned through the years how to compromise, communicate, and let go of egos. He would never raise his hand and hit me. Thats true love.
Women who feel that they need to be hit to feel better emotionally are no different than cutters- people who cut themselves because they feel better emotionally.
Whether you physically hurt yourself, our can talk your husband into doing it for you, it's still a problem that needs intense therapy. The women need therapy, and the men need to be jailed.
I respect your view for your marriage. This is my view for mine. It works for us. We also compromise and have an uncommon communication and understanding of each other. I don't see very much difference between us - oh, except that I will not presume to judge you. Nor would I presume to tell you what is true love in the frame of your relationship. It serves us well in life to remember that each of us bears our own truths. Mine will not serve you, and yours will not serve mine.
DeleteIncidentally, I have a therapist. She is aware that we are in a DD relationship. She is aware that it includes domestic discipline. She has said that we have the most open, effective, loving communication she has seen, and that if the couples that came to see her would communicate the way we do, she would be unnecessary.
If you have a therapist, obviously all is not as wonderful as you claim.
ReplyDeleteYou amuse me as much as I amuse you. I wonder how someone who claims to find this lifestyle repugnant first found and then continues to read blogs in this community. If you read back further in this blot you would know that the therapist came long before Ward and that my metrics have improved greatly since I have been with Ward. Not that any of that will matter to you, you've already passed judgement.
DeleteIt's rather interesting that 99% of women in these dd relationships have emotional problems. It's women who are screwed up that are drawn to it.
ReplyDeleteWow really? I'm not in a DD marriage but I also suffer PTSD from being sexually assaulted. But my husband does not lead me nor is he head over our marriage. He does NOT get to make final decisions, we both come to compromises. If anything I'm probably more controlling. I don't agree with June that the man should be the head, I feel it's up to each individual couple and as long as its what the woman wants. I don't agree with how Stormy's husband runs things but still.
DeleteAs long as June could back out if she really want to and this life makes her happy then to me that's all that matters even if I wouldn't allow my husband to be HOH. My husband would never also lay a hand on me either no matter how horrible I was. But again this is what she wants. I think you saying she all DD women have emotional problems is wrong and too judgemental. I also have been a little harsh on them but realize they don't try to say "this is how every marriage should be with the wife being disciplined." So please grow up.
Nicole
Thank you, Nicole, for speaking up. Ward & I would never presume to have all the answers. What we write about is our truth and we realize everyone has their own truths and we respect that. Even between us we're growing, learning, and evolving constantly. Though Ward has final decision my counsel is sought and my opinion is given careful thought and consideration. And yes, if I was unhappy I could walk away right now with Ward 's blessing and his continued support, love and friendship in whatever I choose to do.
DeleteI'm also sorry that you suffer. I have recurrent major depression since my early 20s and PTSD for similar reasons, discussed elsewhere on the blog. Ward is the first person with whom I feel free and safe.
@ Anonymous - It amuses me that anyone as rude and judgemental calls anyone else screwed up. You don't even know me, or June and you're ready to write us, and this lifestyle off as abusive or wrong. I feel sorry for you and people like you. Ignorance and a prejudgmental attitude are the sure signs of a weak and fearful mind. To tell you the truth Anonymous, I'm not even offended by you, your ignorance shows you for what you are. I wonder if you've ever even known a love so complete and lasting that it can only be described as unconditional. In any event, it's just like everything else, if you are so threatened or hurt by what you read here, why do you? Ultimatley, we do things a bit different, and if that scares you I guess that's fine, but I don't go bad mouthing you or what you stand for.
ReplyDeleteI love June with my all, and if you really wanted to understand what this blog and others like it are all about then you would, instead you want to harp on your own ideaology and vision of what a relationship should or should not be.... This is the year 2012, just because somthing is different that doesen't make it wrong. I think if you understood who me and June where even before this relationship, you might know a little more about this lifestyle and what it means. June is my greatest blessing, truest friend and one true soulmate. I would never abuse her trust or do anything to harm her or our relationship.
Have a nice day.