Strength and Softness and Balance

                                                 

 Strength... The word has defined my life.  I understand it deeper all the time, and I respect it's something that I have had to have all of the days of my life.  When I was a child, I never measured up to the expecations of it... And now sometimes I have to learn that their are other things in life that mean so much more than mere strength.  I'm 6'4 275lbs and I am strong... sometimes, I let my youngest hang off of my arm and enjoy that expression of wonder and brightness that only exists in the very young. Still, next to mental, emotional, and spiritual strength, my physical strength is nothing. There are things I don't like to talk about, and I promise that I won't get into here, but I have definitely seen more than my share of hard times throughout my life. The battles of the heart and mind are the toughest for me and that seems to have been the case since I was young. Still sometimes I must remind myself that at times there are no easy answers and there are no shortcuts  when it comes to dealing with the minds and hearts of the ones that I hold dear, the ones that look to me for answers.

                                                                      

 Sometimes the physical expression of my strength comes in handy and in fact is quite useful.  I am a good one to know when there is moving to be done, I'm deceptively athletic and am often able to parlay these physical skills into completing work and work related task quicker and more efficiently. I am prouder still of the mental and  emotional strength that I am able to provide my family with. Our boys have special needs  and many times they need a stable, male influence that provides  mentorship, confidence, and a voice of experience. I know that they haven't always had that, and it thrills me when I am able to help them see the actualization of their own potential.  More than strength alone, I have also realized that somtimes, more than just goal oriented focus and a direct, stern approach, they also need my unconditional acceptance, patience, and wisdom.  As I pondered these things, It became abundantly clear that these concepts can and should be easily applied to a DD/TTWD relationship. 

                                                   

 Throughout our relationship, I have learned and discovered that sometimes my initial thoughts on a subject or experience often require a second look... We both put a lot of work into this relationship, and I am one HoH who is ready to admit that he cares enough to be worried about the message that he sends his Wife.  Sometimes I don't always communicate well... and while I'm not proud of the way that I've handled everything, I generally feel that we do a good job of giving each other the respect, honor and attention that we as individuals deserve, but also as a couple... Sometimes a direct, logic-oriented approach just isn't the answer. Sometimes we get the most mileage and growth by making ourselves emotionally available to each other when we are at our most vulnerable.  Our life is often hectic, loud, noisy, and full of interesting little twists and turns that often leave us frazzled... it goes without saying that a frazzled husband or wife does not make for a smooth relationship environment.  Thus, it behooves me, the HoH, to be mindful of his words and deeds and balanced in his approach to his relationship.

                     

                                                     

Sometimes being my June's soft landing place, her shoulder to cry on and her ear to listen when things aren't easy is a something that I am proud to be able to give her.  Balancing strength, discipline, love, and  reciprocity yields big benefits, and while I don't always get everything right... She loves me enough to let me learn, let me grow, and do the same for me when I need it... I really don't want to think about where I would be if it weren't for June.. Even when I am not at my best she shows me that she loves me, she doesn't just tell me, she shows that she has faith in me... faith in us and in turn, this gives me the kind of confidence that a HoH requires in order to be effective... I am blessed and thankful to be able to count on my June for love, support and understanding and I hope that she can say the same of me. 

                                                               

Finding the balance between strength and softness and recognizing these same qualities within each other is a very helpful tool when we are finding each other through stress and day to day life. It gives us a guide in the difficult times and highlights and accentuates the good times.  We hope that you all have an opportunity to see what Balancing strength and softness can do for your relationship... You won't be disappointed.


Her POV:

Have I mentioned how very much I like it when Daddy calls me 'his June'? How very warm and like an enchanted princess it makes me feel?...

I have never had any one I could depend on I was always the one who had to be strong for everyone. And it wore me out. I wonder sometimes that Daddy can continue to exhibit that strength of heart and of character I worry that it will wear on him as well. But he seems to thrive on it. And it is so lovely to be able to sink into him.

I know that we have very high and exacting standards for our relationship, but in all reality I think Daddy is too hard on himself regarding how he communicates. I have never had anyone who cares so deeply about hearing my concerns and communicating well.

And in those times when it is hard, when I shut down, and he pulls it out of me, and I'm sure he will run for the hills, he never does. He uses that strength to pull out those things from my heart, and then he holds me up when I am sure I cannot go another step.

I do have faith in my Daddy and slowly he's teaching me to have faith in myself. I am proud of my Daddy, and what he brings to our family. I am proud of how well we communicate, I am proud of this man who has been along so long, and never exposed to children, let alone sometimes difficult children, and a definitely difficult woman, can hold us up and steer us in the right direction as a productive, cohesive unit that moves with grace and unity.

A Season for Giving Thanks

We're closing in rapidly on Thanksgiving here in the US (our Canadian friends celebrated 10-8-12), so naturally thoughts turn to the things for which we are thankful. OFM had a lovely post last week, Stardust Exposed by an Attitude of Gratitude, in which he talks about how to develop an attitude of gratitude.


I have always tried to be that way. I'm the odd one who calls to say - Hey, I just got great service! Or - Wow, that was the best meal I had in ages! I think people complain a lot and forget to give thanks. So, many years ago, I made the decision to recognize things that brought light. I also try to remember that while I don't have abundance, I have more than a lot of people.

When I want to grumble because I have to do another load of laundry (seriously, the stuff breeds! I can finish three loads a day, pull the last load from the dryer, turn around and the hamper is full again!), I instead give thanks that I have clothes to wash, our own washer and dryer (2nd hand but they work!), and a house to keep the clothes and appliances in. When I want to complain about cleaning, I remember instead to give thanks that I have a house to clean for my family. When I don't want to cook, I give thanks for the food, the cookware and the fuel that allows me to feed my family.

Our children have SPD, they are sometimes difficult to manage, overly loud, and melt down quite a bit. But they are beautiful, smart, they have smiles that light up the world, possess laughter in their souls that bubbles over like exuberant, refreshing water over river rocks, and brings joy and laughter to Ward and myself. And despite the challenges, and sometimes the downright discomfort they experience, they are the personification of joy, and our family would not be the same without them. They were my first experience with unconditional love. I give thanks to God for them- two of my three greatest gifts, because of who they are and because they came late in life with an ease that was a blessing. And they continue to bless us every day.




I thank our children for bringing joy and laughter into our lives. I thank them for teaching us to look at the world through fresh, unencumbered eyes. I thank them for showing us beauty in the mundane. I thank them for teaching me how to shed my inhibitions and just BE in this single moment of time. I thank them for teaching me that I know how to love with all of my heart and without fear. I thank them for teaching us patience, and for making us better people.






I give thanks that my God saw fit to bring Ward into our lives. I thought that I was destined to a life alone. Then came this man who loves me so completely, who doesn't ask me to change for him, but instead takes my hand and says "Come, grow with me."; this man who sees into my soul, and gives me what I need even when I don't know what I need. I thank him for loving perfectly imperfect me.

 

I thank my Ward for the simple things he does, every day, going to work, sitting down next to me and grabbing clothes out of the basket and helping me fold, taking the dishes out of my hand and saying - sit you cooked, for giving me a little bit of time every day to relax and have mommy time, for the occasional girl's day out, for taking time with the boys every single day, for massages (never had one before Ward), for foot rubs and for painting my nails, for doing the grocery shopping with me and helping with the bags and the putting away, wrapping his arms around me every night, for never letting me forget for one single moment that he appreciates the little things I offer him, and that he loves me fierce.


I thank my Ward for being everything that I need and more. I thank him for making me strong, and finding more in myself than I ever imagined I had inside. I thank him for his hand in mine. I thank him for loving me enough to provide discipline and correction to purge all that does not belong between us, for providing us with a clean slate and for his grace and forgiveness. I thank him for showing me the good inside myself and teaching me that I deserve love, and acceptance. I thank him for the gift of laughter. I thank him for the genuine joy that he brings.


I thank him for loving the children I brought into our relationship as if they were his own, and for the light I see in their eyes when they are with him, and the example that he provides to them, how to be a strong, valorous, compassionate, honorable, loving man. I thank him for the family that I have always longed for, and thought would always be just outside my grasp.

 I thank my God for the richness of friendship in this community. I thank Him for wealth that goes well beyond the material. I thank Him for enough - we may not have a lot - but we always have enough. I thank Him for a full heart, and love beyond imagination, I thank Him for light, and for lifting me up and letting me find my home.

We wish you peace and blessings today and every day.

HIS POV:
I am so very thankful for the opportunity, privilege and blessing to have such a beautiful family. I agree wholeheartedly with June on making it a point to thank people and services for exemplary service and attention to their craft. I have so much to be grateful for so many blessings that it is hard to begin.

- Our children light up our world and even with their exuberance, they are such a beautiful and bright part of our world... I love them as they are... they are my sons, and I love the opportunity to be a dad again. (long story, perhaps I'll post about it someday).

- Our love is a blessing beyond what I could ever ask for. I know that I don't deserve June, but the Lord's grace and abundance abound, every day is richer and brighter and I thank June so much for letting me be a part of something so beautiful that it defies words.

-  I thank the Lord yet again for the depth and richness that we share that is a world unto itself. June, I thank you for being the one to draw me out into the light, and help my heart heal so I could love again. I am thankful for every moment that we have shared along the way and I'd do it all again. A man could not ask for more than the gifts that you have given me.

We are truly blessed and we want to thank each and every one of you guys that read and even our lurkers, for sharing the journey and much needed insight along the way!  Thank you one and all and we wish the Lord's many blessing on you and yours!

We got news...

As you know, Daddy has been waiting for word on whether he would have to deploy, and would be gone from us for Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years and Valentine's Day.

Daddy got some news, and he told us

By the grace of God, his orders have changed, and our family will be together for the holidays. We thank each and every one of you for your support, positive thoughts and especially for your generosity of spirit in lifting us up in your prayers. We are so very grateful for this community, and for the many blessings we receive from Him, both directly and those given through the grace of love and of friendship.

I share with all of you,especially my friends who are suffering their own worries at this moment,  two songs that have brought me comfort, and our promise that our family will continue to lift each and every one of you in our prayers.

HIS POV:  
Things can change as quick as a flash of lightning in the service. I wish my comrades in arms a safe and sound deployment. I have been given the blessing of experiencing the holidays in full effect with my family and that is truly the blessing to many many prayers and we thank you all so very much for giving us so much needed support.Thank you all for your steadfast support of Lady June and myself during what has been a interesting year!

Submission and Obedience - An HoH's View

                                                                                   


                                                                                                  


I think June has expressed the fullness and complexity of her submission in many splendid and beautiful ways. It has come to my attention that perhaps it might be high time that I weighed in on a subject so precious and complex.  When we where getting acquainted, June and I spent hours of time just talking.  We shared ideas, shared stories (I will post more sometime, I promise) and talked well into the wee hours of the night/morning just getting to know how the other thought. June truly does have a submissive, giving heart and a genuine will to please.   I have come to understand that what we share is a rare and beautiful jewel of a gift, something to take pride in, something to protect, something to burnish, and polish until it shines brighter than diamonds.



                                             


I think when we were in the initial phases of our relationship, it took some getting used to for me.  Here she was the first truly pure soul that I have ever known.  When our relationship went beyond the simple cozy phase to the 'Wow this is the one truly love phase' it didn't take long for us to fall into our respective rolls with relish and joy.  Dominance, even in the most domestic sense has always been something that is natural for me, it's just like falling off a log or making love, or laughing in the rain.  June is again, a natural submissive and I imagine it must be  much the same,  like laughing or like enjoying a warm sunny day.  I'm sure you have heard her say it several times, but in many ways June and I feel very blessed to have  experienced this lifestyle almost by default.  You may know or have well guessed that June and I also happen to be spanking enthusiasts, but it's more than that. Our relationship thrives off of the structure, and support that Domestic Discipline brings and promotes. We are open and honest with each other, and we love each other enough to hold each other accountable and to listen even when it isn't simple or easy.

Understanding June's submissive nature has led to the many delightful discoveries. One of the things I take such a joy in is her obedience. I guess it might sound funny to read in this day and time, but one of the things I take pride in besides (well everything) is how she expresses her love and devotion to me and our relationship by working hard to be obedient.  I know it can't always be easy and that there are many complex and beautiful factors at work here. To obey and serve another is amongst the highest of callings and to be loved by one so diligent, pleasing and genuinely interested touches me more and more every day.  It truly does make a man feel like Royalty, and you all know that I try to make her feel like the Queen that she is. So many beautiful things we have discovered, chiefest among them are:



An honesty unparalleled (even when one of us may not like hearing what is said)
A love unfettered
A lightness of mind
A similarity of thought process
A  beauty and richness of soul and a open free heart


Well there are other things that we have discovered... but those are for us... sorry not sharing (grin)


                                                                    



                                                                               

June's beautiful gifts of submission and obedience are straight from the heart and in reciprocity, I give her my strength , my love and my devotion... we may just be regular every day folk, but together  we are something greater...




                                                        




Her POV

Daddy tells me all the time that he is pleased, and that I am his good girl, but to tell you the truth, to see it in concentrated form...I'm sitting here with tears rolling down my cheeks.

Ward is a strong, gentle and honorable man. As we talked and got to know each other better, I felt myself opening to him more and more. I suspect that it was very new for both of us. I was never received in the way that he received me. It encouraged me to be more expressive of my nature.

I am - as you've heard me say before - just me, but I have been told that I am a natural submissive. It is not as much of an effort for me to submit as it is for me to be the strong one, the one in control - which is the position I had repeatedly found myself in in prior relationships. With Daddy, it was a folding into him, it was being accepted for the first time ever and being able to just be who I was.

To be able to anticipate his needs, and to see that look on his face, and feel what it does for him, to be able to stretch myself and give him the things that he wants, fulfills me in ways that are very hard to describe. It is a peace, a quiet of the heart and soul, a sense of completeness and a joy I have never known.

I am honored to belong to this warm and giving man, I revel in being able to submit to him in joy, and as the photo at the top of our blog says, I will follow him anywhere and I will always have his back.

Distancing

Stormy wrote a wonderful, insightful post yesterday Go The Distance. She and I have talked about distancing before here on blogland. We both have rules against distancing. We both struggle with it.

Stormy wrote:
"He says Distancing is Dangerous. He says its Disobedient. He says its Defiant. He says its Deceptive.
Eeeeeek! Stop, you're freaking me out now, Dude."

 Dang, yes, please, stop - you're freaking me out too - that's every single basic rule we have.....but Ogre's right - sigh.

"What does distancing look like to a man? It looks like distrust. I was staggered a bit when this thought hit me suddenly. WOW. So I am telling him that I don't trust him?"

I was staggered, too. That's what it is. Oh my goodness. My response to Stormy was:

Wow, Stormy, I never thought of it from Ward's POV,and I don't think we've ever really talked about it specifically beyond the fact that distancing is damaging and has no place in our relationship.

I got warned about distancing last week, and still I thought it was about wanting to know what I am thinking so that he can help - which it is - but I don't think I ever realized that it meant I was withholding my trust. But that's exactly what it is, isn't it?

We all know the saying that our actions speak louder than words. I tell him all the time that I love him and I trust him - and I do, more than I ever have another person. But if I distance, when push comes to shove, I prove that I don't.

That's a powerful insight. I think Ward and I need to talk that out....and I think I owe him an apology. Thank you, Stormy. 

Daddy had called from work, and we spoke in the few brief moments about the post and I asked if we could discuss it last night. He said of course. 




When Daddy got home he took my hand and whispered in my ear that it was time for a spanking. It was firmer than usual and none of the lovely little breaks to rub, and I thought it was stress relief for Daddy. Then he finally did pause and he whispered "I won't let you drift away, little one." And at his words I pulled back into focus, "Was I drifting, Daddy?" He rubbed, "The last day you were, a little." And tears came because I didn't know I was. I should have felt it and I didn't. He soothed and said he didn't expect me to be perfect, but he wouldn't fail me. And then he said it was time to finish up and he did, and then took me in his arms. Some lovely things followed that come with reconnection (not correction, thankfully, he pulled me back before I got too far away - just discipline) and it was lovely and sweet. 

Then the evening chores presented themselves, laundry to fold, homework and dinner to make, baths for the boys, bedtime, and finally, our time. We cuddled up and talked about the things in Stormy's post that had struck me - hard. I said that I hadn't even felt that I was distancing, how in the world do I stop something of which I'm unaware? Daddy gave me a forehead kiss (those are yummy!) and said that's what he's there for. But I don't like feeling like I do things I don't understand. He said not to think so much (that should be HIS mantra - I know I think things to death). And he asked me how it felt.






Wow...how does it feel? Well I feel small and scared....maybe despairing....insignificant.... and totally irrational. I didn't think to ask, but Daddy probably knows - the times I have distanced seem to coincide with absence - he went back to work - it's not 9-5. They can call at any time, any day he could come home and have a 4 or 5 day mission - blech. And let's not even talk about deployment. When we were talking on the phone, when he felt more distance, he had just sent me an email that he had to work late...on the first day back. It's not anything over which he has control. It's distressing nonetheless, and irrational because we're both at the mercy of the forces that be there.




All of that sounds whiny, and weak, and because of that I resist  it. I'm his little girl, but I'm his woman, too, I'm supposed to be his partner, his helpmate. How bloody annoying is it to have a whiny helpmate? So I stuff it down instead of sharing how very much I miss him, how very much I need him, how essential he is to my existence. And in rebelling against that weak and whiny voice - am I also rebelling against him? You know, guys, this is just getting worse and worse and worse. Sometimes I hate blogging... because I have to write it out and ruminate, and think, and figure it out, and see it and - oh please no - accept it so I can fix it...I don't know if I can fix it - it happens outside of my conscious mind - it's an undercurrent - probably because that is how I've coped most of my life.....okay, yes - my life before Ward - sigh.....


For Daddy's part, my sweet Daddy-love said I am a priority, this family is a priority, as well as his duties as it's head.  I am very lucky, and sometimes I don't feel that I serve him as well as I wish to. So I guess it's a good thing that we do TTWD, so that I don't have to feel that way for long. Daddy's lap is a magic place, and his love is my miracle. 

HIS POV: 
June is my life, my strength, my inspiration, our family is a priority, not an option and it is my honor and privilege as well as my   greatest accomplishment.  Sometimes life gets to her, to us and it is my work to ensure that our home as well as all in it are well cared for.  It is a pleasure to listen and to help, it is an honor to give guidance and clarity and it is a true labor of love to build a loving home for such a lovely, genuine person.  I am humbled to share a life with this lady, and even though our thoughts aren't always soft, quiet, easy ones I am glad I can be her strength and comfort.

When she begins to put distance between us, I feel disquieted and it alerts me to her needs, and the needs of our relationship. I don't allow distancing for a lot of reasons, the biggest of which is the health of our relationship. I think through vigilance and constant positive reinforcement we can both provide the stability and comfort that we both need and crave.

The Arms of Midnight

Life sometimes
is glaring and harsh
It offers no respite, no shelter


I wandered
in this arid landscape
weary, burdened, tattered
and with a hunger and thirst
unquenched



Hope was gone
when Midnight appeared
cool, dark and lit from within
a soft, cool, welcoming glow

Bittersweet,
surely not meant
for such as me
Still,
attracted to Midnight's glow,
my moth to his flame



 His cloak unfurled
and enfolded me
in his cool, sweet scent,
Midnight light
controls the water
and bathes succulent fruit
that nourishes and refreshes me



And we dance
in his glow, intoxicating sweetness
and the dance brings comfort,
communion, a joining that
could not have been imagined.

I seek now
my future, where once
I dreaded the forward momentum

But in the light of Midnight
it is beautiful
in the heart of Midnight
I am reborn
in the arms of Midnight
safe, and finally home.







HIS POV:
Your beauty and love delight me and honor me in a deep deep way, for some moments in life there are no more words... I love you June.

When I was a young boy, my imagination took me to....

When I was a young boy my imagination took me to heights unknown and I dreamed the grandest dreams.
Children have the right to dream, and dreams, they look to the future with an exuberance and anticipation and appetite that they may never see again, Once a boy becomes a man, he learns what he could become and he can no longer go back to being a boy...  Yes, children have the right to dream.



  Who I am is a question that haunted me for many years, throughout my teen years and my twenties, who I am was a question that often brought fear, uncertainty and unconfidence. Like so many others, my life has not always been kind and truth be told, I haven't always made the best decisions. This wonderful lady that I call mine has been my greatest blessing and I thank the Lord everyday for her. She is my source of comfort, my lover, my greatest friend, and my helper and my mate.  The beautiful gift of her submission gives me a confidence that I never knew and it inspires me to be my best.  Her love makes me a better partner, a better father and a better leader for our family unit.  

That question that haunts me?  I look back at the soft spoken, studious gentleman and I think I can answer

I am:

- A proud father      

- A teacher

- A provider

- A friend

- A lover

   

I think this life, this lifestyle, TTWD has given me many things I may have never discovered what was waiting inside, Our love blossoms and with every second of every day I pause to appreciate our considerable blessings.  We may not be on top of the financial heap, but I think what June and I share makes us one of the richest couples of all!

Her POV:
I have never been a woman who valued material things. Things just don't matter, I would be hard-pressed to name something that was purchased new - new to us, but not new. I'm a crafty dresser-upper. I have known people with measurable wealth, and the finest of possessions, and a pervasive sadness, loneliness and sometimes a coldness that is palpable. Ward and I are incredibly rich, it is luxuriant, and immeasurable. It is something that emanates from our family and shines like a beacon. It creates a warmth that other people see and feel and gravitate towards.

Our children were not born of our great love, I brought them with me into our relationship. Ward embraced them as his own, and they have a mutual admiration society going on. They were missing a positive, strong, principled man to emulate. Then Ward came into our lives and everything changed. I was no longer alone and our children... they have the finest example to pattern themselves on. I have always been proud of them, I am so incredibly proud of my man, and of the men we will give to this world.

And my Ward? He is most definitely my greatest blessing. He has a gentleness, a sweetness, a compassion that draws me out of the tightly walled fortress behind which I had hidden myself. With him, I feel myself blossoming - every single day. And when I walk into our home of repurposed things, painted and covered and pre-loved, I feel the richness of the air. Then I lay eyes on my Daddy, sitting like a king on our sofa, our children doing stunts then climbing into his lap, or clambering for him to 'carry me!' or 'roll me up!', and I hear the elegant music of their laughter mixing and dancing around me and I know that I am wealthy beyond belief. I would not trade my life for anything in this universe.

Dependence

I've been thinking - again - told you I was dangerous. In Change, Growth, Trust and Submission I asked, "The only worry that I have - and I ask him all the time - is this too much? Do I lean too much? Is the burden too heavy? Because having to do that, to carry that wears on me. But my man - he thrives on it."

I know that when he is away, when he cannot be here, when I cannot lean, it is daunting. I know that by the end of the day I feel like I've been run over a cheese grater a couple of thousand times, I'm numb and tired. I know there are a lot of us whose spouses travel, myself, Stormy, mouse, Grace, Riley. And as seems to happen so often, there is a vein of thought running through the community, and not necessarily in posts, but in our conversations with each other in the comments.

I need Ward. And it seems that needs grows proportionally with the growth of my submission. All of the bloggers I mentioned above have made similar observations, as well as faerie and Susie. The longer we do TTWD, the more I lean. In a world where it seems women are considered weak when they are dependent, we thrive as we become more dependent. That statement would outrage feminists everywhere.

Like so many of the words that have relevance to submissive women, the word dependent seems to bear a negative meaning. As defined in the dictionary, dependence is a noun meaning:

1. The state of being dependent, as for support.
2.  Subordination to someone or something needed or greatly desired.
3. The state of being determined, influenced, or controlled by something else. 
4. A compulsive or chronic need; an addiction.

Well that IS kind of bristly, isn't it? I personally dislike the word subordinate. And the rest of those are just not very much better. Ahhh, but wait...

     5. Trust; reliance. (reliance is defined as: The faith, confidence, or trust felt by one who relies)

Well, there we are. That sounds much more like us. I don't depend on Ward because I must. I depend on Ward because I trust him. I depend on Ward because he is honorable. I depend on Ward because I trust him more than anyone on this earth. I trust Ward with my life. I trust Ward with the children I brought into our relationship. I have faith in his leadership.

So, no, I don't feel less because I depend on my man. I feel blessed that I can. I enjoy it. And that seems purely selfish. So my worry, remains, not that I am dependent, but that it will exhaust my Ward, because it is not my aim to take away from him, but to fill him, to support him, to serve him, to love him with all that I am.


HIS POV:
June honors me with her trust and faith.  Every day that we are together, we live for each other and her sentiments in this regard reflect that.  She often ask me if it's too much, to which I smile and reassure her that it is in fact not too much at all, and that it is my greatest privilege to be the head of our family. To guide, protect, nurture, love and discipline is my job and she enables me to do this so very well... even when I am away from home for long periods of time. Our dependence on each other is a beautiful piece of our life together and I wouldn't have it any other way.